Adam Kotsko has written an interesting post about hostility towards high theory over at An und fur sich.
I have noticed a phenomenon that seems to be particularly intense at CTS, but I’m sure happens elsewhere. This is the phenomenon of being impatient with scholarship and theoretical work that does not appear to have an immediate practical application or to be immediately communicable to “common people.” Today this did not come up in class, since we were talking about a very topical book of Judith Butler’s (Precarious Life), but when discussing the idea of how an identitarian “we” very often ends up excluding some of those that it by all rights should include, this issue came to mind.
It seems to me that various types of activist movements, identitarian or not, and also religious movements tend to marginalize or exclude their more “intellectual” members. Hence when we get the impatient question, “But how does this play to the people on the streets/in the pews?,” it may represent a certain defensiveness among people who are seeking to be intellectuals who are faithful to the movements with which they identify. In rhetorically identifying with the “common person” — which the speaker, who is in this case enrolled in an advanced degree program, simply no longer is, whether they want to admit it or not — the speaker can make a double assertion:
1. The common people are right to be suspicious of some intellectual work, which really is useless at best or counterproductive at worst.
2. I, however, do not do that kind of intellectual work and am very suspicious of it myself.This identification and distancing, then, can be a means of expiating a certain type of guilt for enjoying “useless” intellectual pursuits for their own sake. It is difficult for me to imagine that anyone would enter a PhD program without enjoying intellectual work for its own sake, even if the primary goal is, for instance, to document a neglected aspect of one’s cultural heritage or history, or to develop specific programs to help people, etc., etc. Even if one really is a “movement intellectual” in sincere solidarity with an activist or religious group, one is still an intellectual, which is always going to include at least some minimal slippage between one’s intellectual pursuits and the immediate needs (strategic of propagandistic) of the movement. One may take theological stances that one’s church body takes as disruptive of the training of ministers, or one may ask questions about sexuality that are experienced as attacking the unity of one’s identitarian movement — in any case, one’s identification is not complete. Even if that must necessarily be true for every member of a movement, it is much more of a “public” issue for the intellectual, whose role makes it much less easy to hide misgivings than is the case for a “private individual” in the rank and file.
I confess that I’m increasingly guilty of this. In the realm of political theory I increasingly find myself feeling that high theory seldom leads to any genuine action, and is often remote from the living struggles of its day. As such, it finds itself in a sort of performative contradiction. At the level of its content it espouses a radical agenda of change, yet the form of its discourse and the way it is addressed to other academics ends up withdrawing it from the social sphere and allowing the very things it claims to struggle against to persist. The academy can be thought as a way of containing more public forms of engagement and cutting them off in advance.
With regard to theology my suspicion is that high theology is often a rationalization of much more basic religious phenomena. Here the situation is not unlike the Heidegger affair. Heidegger comes up with all sorts of nuanced and sophisticated grounds to explain the world-historical significance of the Nazi party, but at the end of the day the Nazi party is a very stupid, very vulgar, very ugly social phenomenon that possesses none of the saving power he suggests at the level of its concrete practice. Heidegger ends up supporting the very thing promoting the forgetfullness of being he decries. The theologian ends up supporting, in action, the very things they decry by virtue of how religious politics objectively functions.
At any rate, I’m continuously being told that I don’t recognize the diversity of religious belief so I cited some statistics:
Here in the states 59% of Protestants voted for Bush, 52% of Catholics voted Bush, and 78% of Evangelicals/Born-Agains voted for Bush. 64% of people that attended church more than once a week voted Bush, as did 58% of those that attend church weekly.
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html
These are numbers that can’t simply be brushed aside or ignored, and I think they underline why Adam’s allusion to this variety of religious believers is a disingenious argument to make. The numbers for Catholics and Protestants are heartening as they’re almost split down the middle. Consequently, for me the interesting question would be one of how to push those numbers in the other direction. Is high theology going to do this? I don’t see how any of you, however, can reasonably deny that as it stands now there’s a strong coalition between conservatives and religion in the United States.
You can imagine the response from Adam:
Show me an atheist Mother Theresa and we’ll talk. Show me that doctrinaire atheism promotes anything other than stupid pride and other than that just totally going along with the capitalist system, and we’ll talk. Until then, just fucking shut the fuck up.
It’s interesting that Adam believes there haven’t been any atheist benefactors of mankind. It’s even more interesting that he so readily accepts the stories about Mother Teresa and doesn’t look into her own relationship with capitalism (i.e., the way she was perhaps making the condition of the lepers worse due to a religious mission). But the most astonishing claim is the idea that atheists are somehow alone in going along with the capitalist system. If anything, religion in the United States seems to systematically function as one of the central promotors of capitalism. In the end, however, I think Adam’s call to shut up says it all and reveals his true nature. This is the whole problem.
UPDATE: Apparently I’ve been banned from the Weblog and An und fur sich for my remarks. It is good to see Christlike behavior alive and well. I think a not so careful examination of Adam’s mode of speaking to others reveals the true nature of how he feels about discussion concerning religious belief. He’s completely open to such discussion so long as no one disagrees or criticizes the religious. It’s interesting how this company immediately resorts to invectives and attacks the moment they feel questioned. Who knows what else they might do (they certainly did some unkind things to Rich Pulasky over at the Weblog). In his response to this post he refers to me as a doctrinaire, fundamentalist atheist. I wonder if Adam understands that I, and most other atheists, would never speak up about their atheism at all if it weren’t for folk like Adam brutalizing our positions and religious zealots enacting legislation in the United States. We’d much rather discuss ways of solving political problems, social problems, engage in philosophy and science, and discuss an interesting novel or film. At any rate, Adam’s banning performatively re-enacts the history of the church with regard to dialogue. I’m just glad he doesn’t have the institutional power to burn me at the stake or torture me like Galileo.
April 29, 2007 at 4:57 pm
YET AGAIN you are simply begging the question and assuming that Christianity is absolutely nothing but fundamentalism — and implicitly calling us all Nazis in the process. I’m so, so sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities by telling you to “shut the fuck up.” You’re obviously interested in open discussion.
April 29, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Adam, you really should examine your own use of language and review the posts over at An und fur sich. Every remark subsequent to my original one either insulted, attacked, or sought to shut down any discussion. I do believe that we can often end up supporting the very opposite of what we advocate, hence the comparison to Heidegger. I made the same observation regarding high political theory.
April 29, 2007 at 5:11 pm
You write fast, but I wish you hadn’t split the discussion with a meta-post.
1. I think the example of Mother Teresa was simply a rhetorical one, not specifically refering to her, but to sainthood in general. The way it was said suggest this. I am sure Adam is aware of the problems of her claims on sainthood. He could have equally said william wilberforce or Martin Luther King etc etc.
2. Adam’s call to shut up is because he like me doesn’t think that your position on these matters is particularly complex or particularly strong, though I am less aggressive in saying so.
It would be like me discussing Lacan who I know a small amount of via osmosis. Adam personally spends a chunk of his time writing and thinking against these tendencies. He runs two theologically related blogs I don’t think he is trying to shut down the discourse here.
3. The relation between theology and religious practice is not at all similar to Heidegger’s justification of Nazism. It is highly complex, and an interplay between the two things. There is both theology that describes religious practice and theology that creates it and almost everything in between. Theology is not simply the description and intellectual comprehension of pre-existing religious practice – this is false.
4. In regard to ” The theologian ends up supporting, in action, the very things they decry by virtue of how religious politics objectively functions.” Well this is false. We try our bloody best! We try our hardest to be involved in the objective function of politics. As Adam says back over at his blog, we aren’t like Heidegger as “for the part where he actively affiliated with Nazism and we all oppose and reject the religious right and fundamentalism”. Everything I have wrote in the last year is about the interface between theology politics economics and religion. We are trying damned hard and don’t think we are tacitly endorsing the objective function of politics. I would of thought a philosopher of your calibre would have noted that in politics the objective functioning is very very differcult to discern.
April 29, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Heidegger consciously chose to become a Nazi! Do you not understand the disconnect here and how the comparison is incredibly inflammatory?
April 29, 2007 at 5:12 pm
wrote=written, clearly.
April 29, 2007 at 5:18 pm
I don’t have a set policy of banning people who argue against religion. Rich and I did argue about religion, but that was far from the only or even the primary point of disagreement. I do have a set policy of banning people who say the same damn thing all the time when said thing is stupid and ill-informed and has nothing to do with me. The Troll of Sorrow’s remarks about my lack of training in formal logic and his attempts to disprove the existence of God to me are a case in point here — I hardly ever talk about the existence of God and have certainly never tried to prove it or endorsed any extant proof, so it would appear that his remarks have nothing to do with me, only with proving his own stereotypes to himself. I’m glad to be able to fulfill a similar function, too — now you’ve been persecuted by religious people! Congratulations! In reality, I blocked you because I have already heard everything you have to say about religion and am no longer interested. I was hostile toward you invading AUFS with your doctrinaire atheism because I set up AUFS in the hopes of avoiding the same old stupid fights.
So early on a Sunday morning, and I’ve already performatively enacted something — I feel very accomplished and ready to face the day! Your persecution ends here, though. Savor it while it lasts.
April 29, 2007 at 5:20 pm
I know this is getting heated, but your update is only going to fan the flames – “At any rate, Adam’s banning performatively re-enacts the history of the church with regard to dialogue.” is bang out of line. This is the internet and these are the blogs, he banned you because you offended him (and now me, to an extent following your update) not because he is the papal church. This discussion has an extremely long, long history across them. Adam hardly shut you down immediately. And regarding burnings at the stake, out of respect for those who actually were, I would expect a better attitude from someone who wishes to display religions ills – the comparison is hardly correct.
I hope I have been nothing but civil here and elsewhere. Because this is what I attempt to be.
April 29, 2007 at 5:20 pm
You know Adam, I have bent over backwards to talk to you politely and in an open fashion for the last year. In countless instances I’ve modified my position and taken your remarks seriously. In discussion with you and Anthony, I’m endlessly rewarded with invectives, insults to my intelligence, and personal attacks. You even implied, in those posts, that atheism somehow leads to Mao and Stalin. I’m really just not too concerned about your delicate feelings and whether you feel the comparison is fair. Heidegger endorsed Nazism as he understood it He filled his head with all sorts of finely woven webs to characterize the position. It is very easy in all walks of life to idealize movements and ignore what we find unattractive. Do I think Christianity is like the Nazis? Of course not. Do I think that there’s a lot of really horrible things being advanced by people that call themselves Christians in the United States? Yes. Do I think it has to be this way? No. Do I think you’re contributing to these problems whenever you attack someone who is concerned with these things? Yes.
April 29, 2007 at 5:21 pm
It’s hypocritical for me to be leaving comments here after blocking you, but I’ll also note that one of the few people who have been blocked from The Weblog is Toadvine, an evangelical Christian. I also threatened someone whose name I forget, but he also commented on Long Sunday and was a reactionary Catholic. I suppose that despite doing all I could to “silence their voice,” I will still be objectively supporting them when I go back out into the living room to read Pannenberg.
April 29, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Yes Adam, you’re just a pristine saint in how you address people you disagree with. Your use of language is reflective of a deep compassion and commitment to the dignity of all humans. You’re a stellar and glowing light for your movement, bringing us all to a higher level of discourse and not at all reflective of the acrimonious and ugly tone of the Christian right or the likes of Bill Donehue. With a Christ-like patience you respond with love and charity to everyone about you, seeking to minimize differences and promote community in much the same way that Paul was able to overcome differences in the ancient world.
April 29, 2007 at 5:29 pm
I hate to say it, but all he did was block you from a Blog. I hardly think that level of rhetoric is neccesary. If you want to say that you have conducted the discouse well, and Adam has not, well, this isn’t the way to go about it.
April 29, 2007 at 5:31 pm
Alex, you’re stepping into the middle of a discussion that has been going on for months and so you’re only seeing a snapshot of things that have been occuring for a long time.
April 29, 2007 at 5:33 pm
To be honest, yes and no. I have been lurking on theology and cont. philosophy blogs for at least as long as this has been going on (since theory’s empire came out might be a good reference point – the high days of Berube). I knew The Weblog before I knew APS and Adam through it and in the latter case in real life.
April 29, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Levi,
Can’t believe I slept through all of this.
Well, no one talked to me about the banning, which is somewhat upsetting since The Weblog and AUFS seemed to have different administrative policies, but I do think Adam has a point. You seem to think you are so very open about this, but you constantly move outside your area of knowledge. You pretend to rely on objective facts, when in reality you’re looking at polls on CNN, seeing that the majority of religious people voted for Bush without even taking the extra step to realize that even that is qualified with the simple “of religious people who voted…”. You’re very frustrating to talk to – I’ve experienced it on these religion threads and I’ve seen others register that frustration with you on other threads. Invectives on our part (calling your position stupid) are quite different from yours (calling our whole way of living a defence of religious right fundamentalism), but you continue to pretend that you are the saint here. I’m hardly a theologian, I study religion from a specific perspective. So painting me under some brush is already inaccurate. We point out these problems and you paint us as Nazi’s persecuting you.
You’re not helpful for discussion and your pietistic guilt trip about Adam not acting Christ like are just another example of your complete and utter lack of intellectual honesty on this issue. With that being the case why should anyone try to address your vacuity on this specific issue? Why would anyone try to talk to you about this knowing they are already wasting their time, since you seem to fancy yourself as being the one who knows?
April 29, 2007 at 5:41 pm
I’ll note that it is telling you’ve never posted at AUFS since you likely don’t respect much of anything writen there.
April 29, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Have you ever actually read the letters of Paul? (At one point, he suggests that his opponents should cut their own dicks off if they like circumcision so much.)
I’m not a calm, measured person in discussion. This is a well-known fact. I am far from being a Tim Burke. I do not try to mediate conflicts and don’t go out of my way to find common ground. I am a fairly well-known figure in this corner of the blogosphere, and none of this should come as a surprise to anyone. I don’t embrace the paradigm of normative liberal niceness. Sometimes the conversation needs to stop. Sometimes someone needs to stop endlessly repeating the same things.
You claim to retract your views, but you always, always come back to your view that Christianity is simply identical to the religious right and anything else is naive. When you’re stating your own views, you always, always express that — you only withdraw it partially if someone complains. But then, sure enough, the next time you address the topic, we’re back to square one. Absolutely every fucking time.
April 29, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Adam, I just don’t think this is accurate. Time and again I’ve said that I’m interested in fundamentalism and that this is the target of my criticisms and time and again you take me to be referring to all religion. It’s odd that you identify with these criticisms as you do and take yourself to be the target. I think there’s a level, of which you’re perhaps unaware, where you believe that any criticism of religion whatsoever (whether fundamentalist or otherwise) is an unjustifiable attack. This is why I refer to you as an enabler of these movements. At the level of the manifest content of your discourse I know very well that you don’t endorse these beliefs. But the way your discourse functions in debate ends up justifying these things by rendering concern and criticism of these movements off-limits.
It’s interesting that you think sometimes discourse just needs to stop. I think you really should re-evaluate the nature of your discourse and expression. In many situations I think you create conflict where there need be no conflict, and that often you make assumptions about your interlocutors that aren’t justified.
April 29, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Anthony, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I’ve posted on AUFS a few times. I don’t post often as many of the issues discussed there are just outside of my own area of research. That’s very different from not respecting something.
April 29, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Yes, I suppose you think everything I write is theological, and since being a shill for the religious right isn’t your research… but seriously, I would think you would be somewhat interested. Philosophy of Religion (unless you are still pretending to be a sociologist), philosophy of science, politics. These aren’t your areas?
Do you realize that when you say to Adam “In many situations I think you create conflict” this could be perfectly applied to you? The way you bait the many theologians and religious scholars who read your blog (all three to five of us) isn’t exactly fostering open discussion. You aren’t exactly listening mate.
April 29, 2007 at 6:07 pm
You claim to retract your views, but you always, always come back to your view that Christianity is simply identical to the religious right and anything else is naive. When you’re stating your own views, you always, always express that — you only withdraw it partially if someone complains. But then, sure enough, the next time you address the topic, we’re back to square one.
A more charitable interpretation would be that every single time I’m talking about the religious right. You seem to have an extremely difficult time acknowledging at all that the religious right is one mainstream variant of Christianity today. Consequently, ever single time some egregious action of the religious right comes up we’re back to square one debating as to whether this group exists, whether they have power, etc., etc. Your denial of the extence of these groups is what leads me to think you’re like Heidegger. You fit Spinoza’s 13th proposition perfectly: When the mind conceives things which diminish or hinder the body’s power of activity, it endeavours, as far as possible, to remember things which exclude the existence of the first-named things. You recognize well enough that these movements are detrimental to your beliefs so you try to conjure them out of existence and pretend as if they didn’t exist. As a result you unwittingly end up supporting them by proxy. It’s odd that I don’t seem to have difficulties in discussions with my other religious friends, who both recognize the strength of these groups and why they must be fought. Anthony even goes so far as to doubt the statistics I provided in a way that sounds just like a conservative hack like Limbaugh denying reality. If you didn’t react in such a knee-jerk fashion whenever I worry over these particular movements and assume that I’m talking about all Christians we might not end up repeating these discussions over and over again. As a result I do find myself increasingly hostile to all religion, which is unfortunate. I began by being hostile to the ones who had burned books at my school, contested the teaching of evolution, and instituted abstinance only sex education. Through discussions like this I’ve become increasingly radicalized against the whole lot of the religious as they seem to cut off any criticism of religion whatsoever for reasons that baffle me.
April 29, 2007 at 6:11 pm
“Anthony even goes so far as to doubt the statistics I provided in a way that sounds just like a conservative hack like Limbaugh denying reality.”
See, this is the kind of stuff that gets “fuck you” shouted. I didn’t doubt the statistics, you dick, I said it’s inaccurate to claim “52% of Catholics voted for Bush”. Just as inaccurate to say “52% of the American people voted for Bush”. The fact, and most sociologists know this, is that 52% of the people who voted did so for Bush. Voting isn’t the concrete political reality. Christ, this is exactly the kind of bullshit that made me stop reading your blog in the first place. You are impossible to have a conversation with online. The way you pretend that you are ‘only refering to the religious right’ when in a comment made a few days ago you say that theologians keep in place essentialist identities (like homosexual, etc). Completely dishonest of you, but of course, you’re the one who is always right.
April 29, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Anthony, a number of the posts over at AUFS have been on Derrida or other figures I don’t work heavily with. I’ve responded to some of your posts on Deleuze, as you might recall. You seldom respond to anything over here unless it has to do with religion. I have been baiting the theologians more often lately out of sheer weariness with these discussions. I expect that whenever I bring up something the religious right is doing I’ll be attacked from all sides for claiming all Christians are fundamentalists… This despite the fact that I’ve emphasized again and again that I don’t believe all Christians are fundamentalists. The subtext seems to be that I’m not supposed to express any hostility to any form of religiousity whatsoever. Frankly I think you theology folk are sensitive to any criticism of religion. I could use all the words in the world to pinpoint exactly the groups I’m talking about and no others and you would still get upset and say that I’m attacking all religion and saying all the religious are fundamentalists.
April 29, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Anthony, explain to me how it is inaccurate. And how is voting not a concrete political reality? How is it not true that 78% of evangelicals voted for Bush? I honestly don’t understand what you’re saying, so all I can conclude is that you’re trying to deny facts. If there’s something I’m missing don’t say “fuck you”. Educate and correct me. Show me how these are not facts. Couldn’t it be that you’re just not expressing yourself very clearly? By calling me a dick you’re implicitly suggesting, I think, that I have some ulterior motive in citing those facts, that I don’t believe they’re true but am citing them anyway. Why would you think that?
April 29, 2007 at 6:21 pm
This series of posts is fantastic. I’ve been reading Adam and APS’s defensive ad hom. attacks of you for months now every time you make a cogent argument about the potentially counter-productive aspects of Christian high-theological rationalization. The fact that Adam has banned you from The Weblog just supports your points beautifully. The move is a textbook example of how Christianity–especially in America–thrives upon shutting down rather than opening up valid discussion and debate. Instead of being able to think belief structures as historical, the theologians here have proven yet again how religious belief must, at some point, stop the open exchange of ideas in order to cling anxiously to the discourse of righteous faith.
April 29, 2007 at 6:27 pm
I’m off for a few hours and will get to any further comments when I return. I’ve set comments to moderated status because, having witnessed the Rich Pulasky affair and how he was treated and sensing the anger in these posts, I have no idea what might be posted here in my absence. Fortunately I haven’t felt that any called to be deleted yet and hope it remains this way. I truly wish Adam and Anthony could understand that I really, truly am directing my comments only at the religious right.
April 29, 2007 at 6:33 pm
What Rich Puchalsky affair are you talking about?
This is pretty simple. When you get a stat that says “52% of x voted for y” that stat means 52% of those who voted did so in that matter. Not 52% of everyone who identifies as x. Not even 52% of those who could vote and identify themselves as x. This is important when discussing religion and politics becuase you’ll find many on the far left don’t vote at all. Unlike some, they don’t see in the Democratic party any hope. Frankly, I don’t blame them.
If you can’t accept that calling us Nazi’s and all the other vitrol that your are writig constitutes a form of the ad hom, then I don’t see what the point in talking with you ever again is. It’s rude and telling.
April 29, 2007 at 6:33 pm
When the fucking hell did I deny the existence of the religious right?! I was raised in a conservative evangelical church. My own father is pretty much on the religious right!
Talking to you is a waste of time. Anthony is free to unblock you if he wants, but I’ll delete anything you write on my posts.
April 29, 2007 at 6:36 pm
And you are not banned at AUFS. I will ask you, as you do from time to time here, to stop participating in threads if I think you are being unhelpful and willfully stubborn. Since you rarely comment there, I don’t think this will be the case.
April 29, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Anthony, thank you for the explanation. Let’s be very clear here. I did not call you or anyone else a Nazi and I’d appreciate it if you stopped suggesting that I did. I drew an analogy. I said that Heidegger got caught up in sophisticated reasoning that allowed him to endorse the Nazi party as something more than it was. The analogy would be that a theologian can get caught up in sophisticated reasoning that allows them to endorse religious movements that aren’t in line with what they believe. I think the status of this remark as an analogy should be obvious as I also said that political theorists, myself included, can get caught up in very nuanced reasoning and can become so caught up in academic debates that they’re not doing anything at all, thereby allowing the very things they wish to change to persist in the public sphere. This would include me as well.
April 29, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Adam, whenever we discuss these issues you speak about the religious right as being a fringe minority that has no real power and change the topic of conversation. That’s all I mean. Perhaps some residual affection for your upbringing explains why you respond so forcefully whenever those movements are criticized and why you confuse criticism and concern with these movements with criticism and concern over religion tout court.
April 29, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Let’s return to the very first post that started a lot of these discussions:
https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2006/12/16/why-i-get-frustrated-with-the-religious-turn-in-theory/
In that post I was criticizing a strain of Christianity that is supportive of rampant militarism, tribalism, and very often outrightly hostile to other ethnic groups and different sexual orientations. Anthony, Adam, neither of you advocate any of this do you? At least, I haven’t seen you write anything that would lead me to think you do. Yet in the discussion that ensued I was told that these groups are a fringe minority that doesn’t really exist or have any power and that I’m painting all religion with the brush of these types of groups. Given the article the post links to, why would you assume that I think all Christianity is this way? For the most part I have no beef with other Christian groups. I’m glad to have them as my neighbors and friends. It is these groups that worry and terrify me. How many times can I say that? How many times must I repeat it? When I suggest, Adam, that you’re an enabler, it’s not because I believe you endorse these things, but because you get so worked up whenever I talk about them as if you think I shouldn’t talk about them at all. Stop doing that and I think we’d have very little to disagree about at all. I’m not even sure we’d have much to talk about. I have no problem with you pursuing your theology, even if I don’t share those ontological and metaphysical positions. I’m perpetually baffled by the way in which the two of you respond when rightwing Christian groups are criticized. It’s as if you are looking to be insulted or attacked. Chances are I’m not going to agree with your metaphysics, but the fact that you have a different metaphysics doesn’t entail that I somehow despise you or wish to destroy you. That’s par for the course in philosophy. I really don’t understand why you seem to feel the need to defend anything at all in response to these issues. You and those you love are not the target.
April 29, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Again, this is just dishonest. You are acting as if that first discussion hasn’t been, you know, discussed. Seriously, I’m done here. You’re not banned, but you are so supremely unhelpful that I just don’t see the point in spending any time trying to talk to you. I don’t even want to do this, because I think you’ll just use it to further insulate yourself from anything different from your views, but I want to be honest about how I feel and what I see.
April 29, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Dr. Sinthome, although you know my opinion about rigid atheism and American Democratism as well, not to mention your opportunistic love of dr. Zizek, I refuse to ever talk to either Kotsko or Paul Smith if they don’t lift the ban. I’m enough of a libertarian to view this as a really repressive and unnecessary technique.
April 29, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Again, you misunderstand. I agree that the religious right exists. I agree that it’s bad. I think that its actual impact has come more in terms of voter mobilization to do things that the Republicans would have done anyway. After almost 30 years of religious-right activism, we finally have the Supreme Court outlawing a single, extremely rare form of abortion — I strongly disagree with the Court’s decision, but this is basically all the “progress” that the religious right has seen on this front. For example.
I’m much more concerned with Wolfowitz, with Cheney, with Rumsfeld, with Yoo — none of whom identify with the religious right that I know of. It’s not as though Bush/Cheney decided to implement torture because they thought that was the best way to live out their faith or something. All of these policies, with the exception of the occasional token gesture toward “social issues,” are fully grounded in secular reasoning. The Project for a New American Century is not a religious group.
Yes, the religious right came up with religious reasons to support this stuff later on, but that’s just a matter of being loyal to the Republican Party. Figuring out ways to maintain that loyalty is important to the (now apparently failed) attempt to maintain Republican hegemony, but apparently the religious right does not ask for a lot of concrete payoff in exchange for their fanatical devotion to the Republican party. And so instead of pretending that the religious right is somehow the center or the origin of the major problems in American foreign and domestic policy, I figured that maybe it would be a good idea to ground our analysis in reality and realize that (a) the religious right is stupid and/or insane and (b) apparently hasn’t noticed that they almost never get what they want.
The real goal of Republican policies is to satisfy a certain portion of the capitalist class. That’s the root of the problem, not the religious right. This is not to say that the religious right doesn’t believe and promote terrible things — they do. Certainly it’s not to suggest that they don’t exist. It’s just my attempt to address the actual facts, and this hysteria over the religious right — which you have maintained even as the Republican Party seems to be totally collapsing in on itself — strikes me as misguided and disproportionate.
April 29, 2007 at 8:49 pm
“Instead of being able to think belief structures as historical, the theologians here have proven yet again how religious belief must, at some point, stop the open exchange of ideas in order to cling anxiously to the discourse of righteous faith.”
Dude, this is blog land. I find the proposition that APS and Adam are attempting to stop open exchange on any subject, they are not of the religious right and again these are the blogs. You come across like they are oppressing you, preventing your freedoms.
Lets make it clear what has occured here. In an obscure corner of the internet academic A has temporarily suspended academic B from his – wait for it – blog. A is still talking and discussing stuff with him and everything and has explained his reasons quite cogently. But what is important here is that in an obscure corner of the internet academic A has temporarily suspended academic B from his blog. Its a blog-fight. Nothing more. No one has shut down anyones open exchange. If you want to fight the battle against those who really shut down open exchange, then sort China out.
April 29, 2007 at 8:56 pm
“sensing the anger in these posts, I have no idea what might be posted here in my absence. ”
You see thats what makes me mad. I know Anthony pretty well in real life, and Adam fairly well through his blogs and via Anthony. The idea that even when angry about intellectual issues they will flip out and do something crazy. They will go nuts or something. The idea that they would say anything regarding deletion is absurd and you know it. Regarding the whole Rich thing, I said my piece at Scott’s blog.
Its in these debates that I seem to always pop up and like a stupid Fark.com poster remind everyone that it is just the internet. Well it is, but because we are all academics we all take it (often) far too seriously. When someone on Fark.com has a 2000 page discussion on religion no one is going to say anyone is policing the discourse or shutting down open debate. This all the more adds to my thesis that real academic debate rarely happens on the internet, and hardly ever happens on comment threads, no matter how high brow the blog is.
April 29, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Case in point “It’s not because I believe you endorse these things, but because you get so worked up whenever I talk about them as if you think I shouldn’t talk about them at all.” Its like you think that Adam etc are the SS or something, preventing your free speech. They aren’t, they just plainly think you are ill advised in many of your statements regarding religion. And they react as scholars react, harshly, but also when your statements are so wide-ranging.
Dude, you need to actually be under a fundamentalist as Adam has and I have experienced to understand what preventing open discussion really is. And I can tell you, it certainly is nothing like someone banning you from a blog or saying something snarky.
April 30, 2007 at 3:19 am
Seriously, if the Internet was a car, right now I’d be driving it off the cliff. Except Joseph Kuglemass apparently won’t let me have the keys. And the Internet isn’t a car.
My whole plan just fell apart.
April 30, 2007 at 3:22 am
But honestly, I wish that my repressive fundamentalist Sunday School teachers had told me to “shut the fuck up” instead of the manipulative passive-aggressive “kill him with kindness” idiocy that was so endemic at my church. Or confronted me directly instead of sending the new cool youth pastor to go drink coffee with me and try to straighten me out. Etc., etc.
April 30, 2007 at 3:24 am
Adam, I with a good deal of what you in your most recent post. I would quibble with the thesis that PNAC is entirely secular. I tend to think that some of PNAC’s aims are bound up with a certain understanding of Revelations and apocalypse for some of the members. However, when you write the following, it’s difficult for me to agree.
First an obvious point: Nothing is the one cause. Were you taking me to suggest that it was the only cause? I talk about a number of things on this blog. The religious right is one that comes up from time to time. They have been a contributing factor but not the only one. I believe we should talk about all these contributing factors insofar as we can.
Second, when you talk about coming up with reasons after the fact, I’m just not sure how to respond. I believe that movements and persons are what they do, and do not make a distinction between some sublime inner essence and an outward appearance. Unlike some who believe that they can see the true nature of a person beyond their actions like the Bush supporter that says “he’s a good man” despite his actions, I can’t see into the hearts of men nor into the true inner essence of a movement. All I can do is attend to what people and groups actually say. It sounds like you believe yourself to have some inner insight into these movements and their motives.
In my view the religious right has become tightly bound up with what you call the capitalist class in both its own theology and its actual political involvement. This is not new. A number of religious movements have functioned as apologetics for economic and political conditions throughout history. In our current context I don’t think it’s a surprise that we’ve seen so many fundamentalist movements emerge in the United States following the decline of the great labor movements and anything like a viable and genuine emancipatory politics in the States. We might, for instance, think of the tremendous success of Rick Warren’s ministry and the so-called prosperity prayer. What I find curious in your remarks, as always, is your allusion to hysteria, the facts, and being misguided and disproportionate at the end of your post. The neocons wouldn’t be where they are today without voters. The religious right makes up a significant voting block that has enabled this to take place. Other things besides the religious right have contributed as well. One can both discuss the issues you bring up with regard to Cheney and Rumsfeld and talk about the role that these religious movements have played. You seem to deny multiple causality and suggest that because other causes are also at work, these causes should be denied and ignored. It is this kind of response that so often leads me to furrow my brow in wonder, experiecing confusion as to what motivates you and how you think about these issues. It seems to me like it’s something that you just wish to sweep under the rug or feel shouldn’t be talked about at all. If I am a hysterical alarmist that gets overly worked up by the religious right I’m also unclear why you spend so much time responding to me both now and in the past. I admit that these issues are fairly personal for me and that this might motivate a good deal of my own particular interest in them. As I’ve intimated in the past, I saw one such movement sweep through my hometown and turn everything upside down when I was younger. They banned Orwell’s 1984 from the highschool English classes and actually burned them in a rally in front of the school, overturned safe sex education in favor of abstinance only education, and strongly pushed creationism in the biology classes. In addition to this, families were pitted against families. Similar things take place across the country, sometimes even worse such that jewish or atheist families that protest the presence of religious observances at their school are driven out of town. As a result I have a pretty vested interest in these movements. It is possible, then, that my belief that these groups have disproportionate influence and that these things are only isolated, but the data doesn’t suggest this to me.
April 30, 2007 at 4:12 am
A number of religious movements have functioned as apologetics for economic and political conditions throughout history.
Dr. Sinthome, I haven’t researched the Texan situation enough to assess whether or not it is true, but if it is, then the liberal-democratic movement to which you apparently belong is equally complicit in the apology. However you have persistently and with such consequential rigor refused to put Saint Zizek and Saint Clinton under criticial scrutiny, that you have perpretrated the fundemantalist operation yourself, much more than I see Anthony or Adam doing it. Furthermore it’s nearly ridiculous for someone who believes in Lacan to have such a distrustful view of religion. Lacan studied Kabala vigorously, for God’s sakes!
April 30, 2007 at 4:26 am
Untrue Dejan, you just need to dig through the archives more. I’ve been consistently critical of liberal-democratic movements in a variety of contexts and have levelled some pretty scathing critiques against Zizek on a number of occasions. I just don’t have a black and white view of the world where because I see one aspect of something problematic the whole thing must be rejected, that’s all. A lot in Zizek leaves me grumbling and I find other things to be illuminating.
I think you’ve misread Lacan if you believe he endorses religion. He studies religion in much the same way Freud studies religion in Civilization and its Discontents: As a phenomena of the subject and desire that must be explained immanently in terms of desire, drive, and jouissance. Lacan clearly states, on a number of occasions, that he’s an atheist. Of course, in the clinic this shouldn’t matter as the analyst’s beliefs are irrelevant.
April 30, 2007 at 4:38 am
It seems a bit strange to use a political system that is necessarily one-dimensional to measure the diversity, or lack thereof, of anything, much less religious belief.
April 30, 2007 at 4:44 am
I just don’t have a black and white view of the world where because I see one aspect of something problematic the whole thing must be rejected, that’s all
OK I will do that, although with respect to Zizek, it is precisely that one crucial ”aspect of it” that you refused to look into, because if you did, you would see democratic fascists, and I think that idea is a ”heresy” in your system. I think you really believe the American Left is GOOD, and that’s why the fundamentalist right is such a BAD threat.
Lacan’s musings on the Real as Paradise Lost, the Phallic order, his explanation of Desire and the petit objet a, and ultimately even the idea of the de-centered self, all resonate strongly with Christianity, as does his oft-repeated injunction to ”die for something” et cetera and so forth. I didn’t know that he declared himself atheist, but then I get the impression he was not as wary of religion as you are.
April 30, 2007 at 4:50 am
Lacan’s musings on the Real as Paradise Lost, the Phallic order, his explanation of Desire and the petit objet a, and ultimately even the idea of the de-centered self, all resonate strongly with Christianity, as does his oft-repeated injunction to ”die for something” et cetera and so forth. I didn’t know that he declared himself atheist, but then I get the impression he was not as wary of religion as you are.
He repeats this on a number of occasions, claiming that psychoanalysis is the only truly atheistic discourse (Seminar 11) and even going so far as to proclaim psychoanalysis an a-theology. Lacan always recommended the study of theology. My take is that he saw theology as tracing the fetishized structure of the unconscious and desire, in much the same way the Feurbach felt that religion contains truth but in an inverted and distorted form. Your remarks are interesting. You seem to suggest that aspects of Lacan ring true because of his Christianity. Why not instead say that aspects of Christianity ring true because they are manifestations of psychoanalytic structures of desire? If psychoanalysis gives us an accurate picture of the subject, then we would expect to find psychoanalytic themes in any cultural formation. The real as “paradise lost” is not unique to Christianity, but nearly every religion has a nostalgic myth of a time before time from which we are fallen. I’m not seeing the other connections you’re making, so I’ll leave it there.
As for the American left… I don’t believe it exists. I dislike fundamentalists of all sorts, whether they be religious or otherwise.
April 30, 2007 at 5:01 am
and even going so far as to proclaim psychoanalysis an a-theology.
the way this was explained to me by other Lacanians and psychoanalysts, and I believe it myself, is that analysis was never meant as priesthood, or a method of deliverance. While many people who don’t dig analysis see it as a form of confession. But analysis won’t save you. Once you’re rid of the neurosis, it’s up to you what you do with your life.
So Lacan’s remark this way makes perfect sense.
The real as “paradise lost” is not unique to Christianity, but nearly every religion has a nostalgic myth of a time before time from which we are fallen
However I was addressing HOW the Paradise is lost. I can only make a parallel between Christianity and the psychoanalytic account of the Oedipus narrative. As dr. Zizek duly noted in PUPPET AND DWARF, it is Christianity that proposes la differance, isn’t it? I don’t see strong parallels between that and Buddhism, really.
I dislike fundamentalists of all sorts, whether they be religious or otherwise.
However there are fundamentalists (in this case: Slovenian nationalists) in leftian disguise, … but never mind. The thing is since the external policy of the American Right and Left does not differ one tiny bit, and I know that the fate of Yugoslavia would have been the same under Clinton and Bush, I tend to see your Left and Right as being in a Moebius strip style relationship.
April 30, 2007 at 5:11 am
I don’t like Zizek’s fundamentalism. Happy?
The way this was explained to me by other Lacanians and psychoanalysts, and I believe it myself, is that analysis was never meant as priesthood, or a method of deliverance. While many people who don’t dig analysis see it as a form of confession. But analysis won’t save you. Once you’re rid of the neurosis, it’s up to you what you do with your life. So Lacan’s remark this way makes perfect sense.
All of this is true, though I think Lacan is saying something more substantial than what you here describe. Recall that for Lacan traversing the fantasy consists in overcoming one’s belief in the big Other. Recall that the symbolic is organized around a master-signifier that transcends all the other signifiers and holds them in place. Recall that this structure is represented on the masculine side of the graphs of sexuation, where one term is subtracted from symbolic castration. For Lacan the masculine side of sexuation is theology. It would be organized around unconscious belief in something like the primal father of Totem and Taboo, call him Yahweh if you like, or some equivalent structural placeholder whether it be dear leader, the king, God, the primal father, etc. An a-theology would be a form of desire that is no longer organized in this way or no longer premised on belief in a subject not subject to symbolic castration. That is, psychoanalysis is a-theological in the precise sense that it rejects the discourse of the master or is the other side of the discourse of the master.
Now, it’s perfectly fair to ask whether or not Lacan has a suitably sophisticated understanding of theology. One could, perhaps, show that theology doesn’t necessarily entail a transcendent term like a God or primal father. But this, I take it, is nonetheless what Lacan has in mind when he describes psychoanalysis as a-theological.
April 30, 2007 at 5:12 am
And you know dr. Sinthome the really terrifying and apocalyptic thought about fundamentalism is THIS, namely that the Left and the Right merely mirror each other, and are at the same time completely united in their common goal – the imperial spread of capitalism. So the identity crisis that the Left experiences is a faux-crisis, we all know what the REAL crisis is.
April 30, 2007 at 5:24 am
That is, psychoanalysis is a-theological in the precise sense that it rejects the discourse of the master or is the other side of the discourse of the master.
Of course I understand that, dr. Sinthome, you know I believe in psychoanalysis as subversion, however what makes you think that Christianity is a Master discourse? I for one do not experience it as such. I believe Christianity also asks you to give up on the Master discourse, the big Other, in a number of ways, the most important being its request to abandon the illusion of selfhood. This what would be troublesome about only considering religion in terms of its sociological consequence, because I know from Christian Orthodoxy that faith IS the praxis.
April 30, 2007 at 5:29 am
I mean the Christian subjet is the decentered subjet, fundamentally split, and Christ is adamant in the Bible on earthly Paradise being inaccessible to humans in THIS life, so whatever fool (like a rabid US Christian fundamentalist) tries to bring it into this life will be judged hardly later, in Kingdomcome.
April 30, 2007 at 9:26 am
http://www.lacan.com/zizhollywood.htm
April 30, 2007 at 2:15 pm
LS, This whole thing about how you don’t have access to inner motives is a total red herring. You seem to have unmediated access to my motives, or else you’re good at insinuating you do.
The problem for me isn’t a desire to defend the religious right — a movement that I consciously and willfully rejected. (I am now studying theology at arguably the most liberal seminary in the country, if not the world.) What bothers me about the emphasis on religion is that it just falls into this same old “culture wars” mentality where religion and morality issues are the most important. I take it for granted that most of the people who take the initiative in formulating policies in the US are basically secular — and I don’t mean that in a pejorative sense at all. Republicans are currently better at bringing the fundamentalist/evangelicals on board; cold-war Democrats were better at bringing the mainline Protestants on board. The fact that Republicanism appeals to the religious right does indicate to me that there is something deeply wrong with the religious right — unlike you, I’m willing to be up front with the judgments I’m making, rather than posing behind your pseudo-sociological “neutrality” (which is only ever deployed when I’m saying something that challenges your presuppositions).
I’m going to need some actual facts or citations before I believe that there are specifically apocalyptic motivations behind PNAC. For instance, I’d need to see that the people actually writing the manifesto have those kinds of loyalties, rather than people who just signed it. Of course, here I go positing some “sublime essence” — it’s really, really ridiculous how you seem to want to completely bracket the question of motive, but again, you only do this when it fits your agenda. So, for example, you claimed not to have access to the Nazis’ motives when I was arguing that the Nazi party did not conceive of itself as a Christian movement, but obviously needed to figure out ways to co-opt the Christians. That was a completely unconvincing argument, as is your current argument that it’s apparently impossible to trace the motives behind tax cuts for the rich, an apparently unmotivated war against an oil-rich country, etc.
You can read Thomas Frank for this. You can also read Marx’s scathing remarks about his peers who thought that they had solved all of society’s problems by rejecting or unmasking religion. If the untruth of religion is so obvious to you, then I would say you need to move on to the critique of political economy. That’s what’s motivating me, not some kind of attempt to carry water for those motherfuckers on the religious right.
April 30, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Adam, I think what I’m objecting to is your distinction between true Christians and false Christians implicit in these arguments. If I’m hearing you correctly, you seem to be saying that the Nazis or Republicans only make references to Christianity for cynical reasons. That is, they have one set of true motives but know these motives don’t resonate with a public they need so they evoke another rhetoric in order to get that public on board. My point is simply that I see no way of knowing this. All I know is that many republicans and the religious right both use this religious language and do all the things that you’re talking about. I’m a nominalist on these issues. If a group identifies itself in a particular way I take them at their word. It is another groups responsibility to organize and provide an alternative as you’re apparently doing in your own religious work. Part of your rhetoric might then consist of claiming the other group isn’t composed of true Christians or whatever; but sociologically groups are simply identified by what they call themselves. That is, any thesis that there’s a true inner essence against which all the groups are measured is rejected. I suppose I advocate Laclau and Mouffe’s position here.
I think you misunderstand why I evoke this sociological principle. You seem to think I do it for some sort of disingenious purpose when it suits me. I’m not sure what to make of this. I use it simply to point out that there are groups out there that describe themselves in this way, that use this rhetoric, and that do these things. I’m not sure why you’d deny this. There are other groups out there as well that describe themselves in different ways, use different rhetorics, and do different things.
For the connections with PNAC you might consult Sharon Crowley’s Towards a Civil Discourse which is filled with nice references to statistics and other sources on the apocalyptic movement in the United States.
April 30, 2007 at 3:21 pm
You just seem to use this “nominalist” thing to avoid any kind of analysis, as though motive is unknowable or as though it’s simply impossible to know if people are cynically manipulating others or are “true believers.” I’m not pretending I have some secret access to people’s souls, in either the case of the Nazis or the Republicans. And though I do think that the religious right is a bad thing — an opinion on which I thought we were in agreement — it’s not because I don’t think they’re “true Christians” or whatever.
I know you’re not going to identify with the criticisms I level at you, but the root problem here is that your “meta” claims about what you’re doing are at a radical disconnect from what you actually do when it comes time to concretely apply those principles. Whether you’re being consciously dishonest or not is unknowable — to take a move out of your playbook — but I suggest that you just work on something you’re better at, because when it comes to this religious stuff, you just are not doing anyone any good. You seem to be a great scholar of philosophy — why not stick with your strengths?
April 30, 2007 at 4:02 pm
I don’t see how I’m avoiding any kind of analysis. Rather, I think I advocate a different kind of analysis. I advocate analysis at the level of actually existing social movements as they describe themselves and engage in a good deal of analysis at this level vis a vis the tools of social theory that I have at my disposal. The sort of analysis that I do is no different than the sort of analysis an ethnographer does when examine a tribe like the Na or the Kaluli. What do you mean by analysis? And perhaps more importantly, what do you have in mind by a “good analysis” of religion?
April 30, 2007 at 4:05 pm
And Adam, to repeat once again, there’s no need for you to read me or interact with me. If my analysis is so poor, then I’m unsure as to why you dialogue with me at all. It’s odd that you banned me from your blog and yet continue posting here. Moreover, it’s odd that you have such a strong interest in me “playing to my strengths” and not engaging in such poor analysis of religion. Why does it bother you one way or another whether I talk about these things? You’ve often made the point that religion will never disappear, so certainly nothing I say could possibly hurt religion or believers.
April 30, 2007 at 4:22 pm
I don’t like Zizek’s fundamentalism. Happy?
dr. Sinthome, I did not see this before.
You can see in the article on Snyder’s 300 that Zizek interprets the fascist fundamentalist Sparta, as the ”symbolically efficient” state, carrier of the Phallic Order, whose well-being is threatened by the neoliberal Empire, with its dekline of simbolik efikasy, i.e. the era of hedonist permissivity. Quote:
In today’s era of hedonist permissivity as the ruling ideology, the time is coming for the Left to (re)appropriate discipline and the spirit of sacrifice: there is nothing inherently “Fascist” about these values
Apart from curiously setting himself on the side of Spartan nationalism (while he’s supposed to be some kind of a liberal democrat?), Zizek also deploys the Phallic law implicitly to account for Sparta’s alleged symbolic efficacy in this article. Which is a Christian reading, and a fundamentalist one at that, for the Christian Father of the New Testament is one of forgiveness, and it is the Old Testament God of vengeance and testosterone, George W. Bush’s God, being invoked here.
Now I have gone out of my way for 6 moths to show you that this is because Dr. Zizek grew out of and supported Slovenian nationalism, in allegiance with Nationalist Marxists (of the Austrian school), so ALL ALONG, his ”left” or ”marxist” agenda is a dialectic negation of his ”Christian” fascism. Deliberate quotation marks because this dialektik hydra negates everything into a negation of negation of itself.
But after more than 6 months, this does not impress you. All you have to say to me is OK I DON’T LIKE ZIZEK’S FUNDAMENTALISM aRE YOU HAPPY NOW as if my motivation was some kind of a personal vendetta!
April 30, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Right, because my root concern is to defend religion! So since it’s invincible (according to me), I shouldn’t be bothered by attacks on something so precious to me!
Replying at your blog when you slander me as being like an apologist for Nazism, slander me as an objective apologist for the religious right, psychologize my motives constantly — yeah, that’s really fucking mysterious why I would do that. Oh, I forgot — I’m the only one who makes personal attacks.
April 30, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Levi, seriously, I’m pretty upset with you as a person on this. It has little to do with your ‘analysis’ and more to do with your personal attacks. I read your blog because I find most of it interesting, I was unaware you came as an all or nothing package. After this I’m pretty happy to go away as I can be called a Nazi somewhere else.
April 30, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Adam, once again you respond in an overemotional fashion without making an attempt to respond to my questions. First, I never suggested you were an apologist to Nazism. I suggested that people can become so caught up in the intricacies of their belief system that they end up supporting movements that are contrary to their beliefs. I find it very interesting and telling that you’ve consistently misinterpreted this analogy to mean that I’m somehow suggesting you’re a Nazi. Would it have been better if I used an analogy to the marxist thinker during the revolutionary period, pointing out that some ardent humanist marxists believed that they were liberating humans to actualize themselves and pursue their own aims, and ended up suggesting an oppressive regime in the Soviet Union that made it even more difficult for persons to cultivate themselves in the ways described by Marx during his humanist period? I can see the headline on Bill O’Reilly now: “College professor calls Christians Nazis!” “Sir, why do you, as a professor at a college, feel it’s okay to call Christians Nazis?” “Well Bill, if you go back and read what I wrote I think you’ll see this isn’t what I actually…” “Sir, that’s not the question, please answer the question!” Are you still beating your wife?
Right, because my root concern is to defend religion! So since it’s invincible (according to me), I shouldn’t be bothered by attacks on something so precious to me!
Where did I say your root concern is to defend religion, Adam? I think this is one of the things that makes talking about anything with you difficult. You assume you know what the motives are of anyone you’re talking about and pre-emptively respond to what you expect them to say. You know that I am an atheist and on the basis of this you seem to assume that you know what I’ll think of you and how I’ll respond to your beliefs and views.
As far as I can tell you seem to only be capable of talking to those who already agree with you, share belief in God while perhaps quibbling over differences in theology, or those who simply don’t bring up religious issues at all. The moment anyone makes a point hostile to religion in any form you go apoplectic, heaping scorn, sarcasm, and obscenities on the person you’re talking to. The unavoidable conclusion for me is that you simply don’t have arguments for your positions and consequently your only response can be to verbally attack your opponent until they either run away or are cowed into submission, agreeing to never speak of such matters again. As you so eloquently put it before, your aim is to get the other person to “just fucking shut the fuck up.” You say this way of talking stems from you not accepting “normative liberal niceness”. Maybe, although I don’t see why not accepting Habermas’ conception of communicative action entails being rude and abusive.
I think the real issue is simply that you’re incapable of dialoguing with the atheist… At least the atheist that’s unapologetic about his or her atheism. The first time you went apoplectic with regard to me was over at I Cite when I said something to the effect that “now that God is dead x, y, and z.” For you this was a grave insult. It was intolerable to you that someone should seriously believe that God is dead and should frankly say so. To even suggest such a thing is to be a “self-righteous atheist fundamentalist”. Nevermind the fact that religious believers feel nothing is amiss in stating their belief in God matter of factly and as a ground of deliberation. In that context you cried foul, claiming that I was somehow disrespecting you. Well that’s not disrespect, that’s simply my position. We can duke it out and disagree… Politely and respectfully, I hope. You can cite all your reasons for believing that religion is still alive and well and growing, and I can cite mine for believing that it is going the way of the dinosaurs. But the fact that I believe this an articulate it, the fact that I believe that everything admits of material causes and say so is in no way a disrespect or some grevious slight against you. It’s no different than were you to believe in string theory and me to believe in some other quantum interpretation. It’s no different than someone advocating cognitive-behavioral therapy and someone advocating psychoanalysis. Yet no one feels as if they’re being violated if the cognitive-behaviorist defends his position against the psychoanalyst.
All of this is really so amazing. It’s unbelievable that you’re granted the right to do peyote if you belong to a particular religion, while the other citizen will go to jail for this. It’s unbelievable that the child whose parents are Quakers can get an unquestioned exemption from going to war, whereas the philosopher who can give fifteen different arguments explaining his rejection of violence still must go to war. It’s unbelievable that someone can spew the worst hate and exclusion against homosexuals on religious grounds, but if a secular boss does the same he would both be fired and sued for hate. Religion gets a free pass from even so much as being questioned, whereas we recognize in all other aspects of life that debate is both legitimate and a part of life. You will respond by saying that you engage in plenty of debates. Well no, you don’t. You engage in debates with other theologians where the god hypothesis is never off the table or treated as a hypothesis. When someone questions that axioms its apoplexy all over again. Why? You don’t have arguments.
What a topsy turvy world we live in! It’s like this everywhere in the United States. Our prominent religious leaders vilify and attack, while claiming they are the ones who are vilified and attacked. You very much repeat this style of rhetoric, by the way. They claim that they are being victimized whenever questioned on any issue, while themselves continuously inciting acts of victimization against others. They claim they are under assault from fundamentalist atheists where they act as fundamentalists in all aspects of life. They claim that there is a concerted effort to eradicate their existence, when they continuously pursue legisllation and forms of social organization that stifle any dissent or alternative points of view. They perpetually claim their positions are being distorted, when they distort the positions of others. You, for instance, in a move worth of how the republicans twisted Gore’s speech to say “I invented the internet”, continuously say that I have called you a Nazi, when the paragraph in question says nothing of the sort. I don’t think you’re stupid and I’m sure you’re adept with hermeneutics as you have to be to study scripture, so it’s difficult for me to avoid the conclusion that you’re being willfully dishonest in such an interpretation of what I said. But it’s also difficult for me to believe that a person would be that cynical, that awful, that wretched, as to take someones words and wilfully twist them to say something so horrific. But then I’m back to the conclusion that if you’re not that cynical and awful, you must be dense. But you can’t be dense as some of what you write is highly intelligent and interesting. But that would mean that you’re really that awful and cynical. Ultimately I just don’t know.
Another person over at the Weblog takes my use of possessive pronouns in a sentence and suggests that I hate women because I criticize a particular position and use feminine possessive pronouns to be gender inclusive in my speech. This is a practice I regularly use on this blog. Of course, no one save BitchPhD called him out on this, and even she doesn’t question the interpretation but just rightly points out that it’s irrelevant to the question of whether I should be banned. It’s amazing how all of these rhetorical tactics come out in these dialogues.
So I know what you’ll say now. You’ll return with more of your reactionary rhetorical techniques– I’ll just call them your “apoplectics” from now on –and you’ll point out how I’ve said all sorts of awful things about you (I haven’t), how I’m dishonest, how I distort things, and so on and so on. The question about treating religion as one more ethnographic phenomenon among others and of what constitutes a good analysis will be ignored because, well, you don’t have a good argument as to why various sects of Christianity shouldn’t be examined in exactly the same way an ethnographer approaches the Kaluli and because you really don’t have any account of what a good analysis is aside from arbitrarily claiming that good analysis consists of participating in your theological game. You’ll then suggest that I evoke something like ethnography or sociology only when it suits my purpose, pretending that it’s just a convenient thing for me and not an actual position I adopt however imperfectly.
But at the end of the day, the fact remains that you’ve banned me from your blog, that you’ve said I’m unintelligent and have nothing interesting to say, and that you think what I do say is just so much irrelevant noise. Why are you still here, Adam? You’ll note I haven’t posted anything additional over at AUFS or the Weblog. I’m more than happy to respect your banning. You told me that you’ll ignore my comments. Yet you seem to have a very difficult time ignoring my comments.
April 30, 2007 at 5:59 pm
Anthony, I never called you or anyone else a Nazi, yet I find it very interesting that you and Adam continue to insist that I did. Don’t worry about being upset with me as a person, the feeling is very mutual. The two of you behave like rabid dogs, viciously attacking anyone who dares to disagree with you and treating these disagreements as if they were the gravest of insults.
April 30, 2007 at 6:14 pm
You completely misunderstand me. You completely mischaracterize my objections to your comments about religion. You completely lack any sense of self-awareness at how inflammatory your comment about Heidegger’s support of the Nazis was, and you completely fail to back up your claim that our academic theology somehow manages to be apologetics for the religious right or to “enable” them. I keep coming back because you constantly say false things about me and I naturally want to correct that! You’re paranoid that I’m somehow going to smear you on your blog — I’m the one getting smeared here! I used swear words, but you totally started it by leaving your irrelevant and slanderous comment at my blog. It had nothing to do with the topic — it was just random slander, saying that by doing academic theology I’m supporting the religious right.
I’m so far from supporting the religious right that I fucking take it as a huge insult to be associated with the religious right! You claim to have no insight into anyone’s motives — but you have plenty of false motives to attribute to me. In short, you keep insulting me — me personally, not religion, not people I love, not the religious right, but me personally — and I keep trying to correct it. But because I used swear words and aggressive language while you adhered to the tenets of liberal niceness, I automatically lost the moral high ground.
April 30, 2007 at 6:29 pm
It had nothing to do with the topic — it was just random slander, saying that by doing academic theology I’m supporting the religious right.
No Adam, it was neither a smear nor was it a random remark. Your post asked why some are suspicious of the intellectuals in theology. I pointed out that these intellectuals often present a highly idealized conception of their religion while nonetheless going to a church and supporting a church that collectively engages in actions that are the precise opposite of what the theologian advocates morally and politically. In doing so they help to enable the activities of that church. Zizek claims that ideology is objective for a reason… It’s not what we think that necessarily matters, but how we’re caught up in a particular system that exceeds our intentions. My claim was the simple claim that theologians should spend less time defending churches as they exist and more time trying to actively change churches. If you’re doing so or a part of a movement that’s doing so great. You could just as easily come back and say to me that as a college professor and laborer in the United States, I’m caught up in a system that helps to promote third world oppression and that reinstitutes unjust class oppositions. You would be right! The question then is what little part can I do to try to avoid that and change things as these things are contrary to the beliefs I explicitly adopt. These are not “slanders”, but very basic ideological observations that are pretty standard across the board with respect to both religion and non-religious affairs. I’m sorry you take it as a huge insult to have that pointed out. The example of Heidegger is a good one as he idealized Nazism, coming up with all sorts of reasons as to how it was fighting the forgetfulness of being and standing opposed to enframing and the destructive march of technology. This idealized view of the Nazi party allowed Heidegger to endorse something that in fact promoted that march of forgetfulness and enframing, and that was atrocious at the level of its actual actions. This is something that can happen to all of us in a variety of ways. A Marxist can end up endorsing a marxist political movement that is the very opposite of liberation. Apparently conservatives have ended up endorsing a political movement that is the very opposite of freedom and the constitutional values they claim to support. The religious right has ended up supporting a political party that is doing everything it can to destroy the family values they support through the way the republicans always side with corporate capitalism. A liberal democrat can end up supporting institutions that are contrary to the values of personal rights they support, and so on. Similarly, I believe that many theologians idealize church doctrine in a way that leads them to support actually existing churches that are contrary to their religious beliefs. How you get from this that I believe you personally endorse these values is beyond me. Presumably you’re familiar with the concept of unintended side effects and the idea of ideology.
April 30, 2007 at 6:31 pm
And if you do lose the moral highground then this is as it should be for failing to treat those about you with dignity and respect. You can still make your arguments and vigorously hold to your position without shitting all over people around you. I realize that your fundamentalist upbringing might render this concept foreign to you, but it is possible and it doesn’t mean you’re selling out to “normative liberal niceness”. Imagine, those who have different metaphysical and political views from you are still human!
April 30, 2007 at 6:33 pm
See, here’s the disconnect: you take the religious right’s word for it that they’re Christians. Fine, they’re Christians. There are different kinds of Christians, some of whom claim to be opposed to each other. You should take their word for it, too. So people who identify with, say, liberal mainline Christianity (the Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, United Methodists) should be judged based on whether their version of Christianity supports terrible hegemonic things. See, none of us identify with the religious right or find it at all appealling — all of us think it’s a terrible distortion of Christianity (though we admit it’s a version of Christianity and we aren’t trying to get you to take a side on what “real Christianity” is).
So you should judge whether I’m an apologist for hegemony based on whether you think that Chicago Theological Seminary and, say, the United Church of Christ is terrible. The mere existence of the United Church of Christ as a Christian church doesn’t lend support to the religious right — most UCC people are anti-Republican in an almost knee-jerk way. The UCC does gay weddings, supports women’s rights, supports labor rights — every liberal cause you want, they’re onboard. How this contributes to the religious right is unclear to me. Same with my school, CTS. Half the faculty is openly gay. Most are fairly radical left. Every one of them and virtually all the students — including me — understand themselves as stridently opposed to the religious right and all their works.
So for you to claim that we’re somehow secretly identifying with and supporting the religious right is outrageous and slanderous. If you’re going to bring Laclau and Mouffe in, you need to recognize that the name “Christianity” is a site of contestation and that radically opposed people claim that name. For you to assimilate all forms of Christianity to the religious right and claim that theologians affiliated with versions of Christianity that are very self-consciously opposed to the religious right are supporting the religious right is for you to take sides with the religious right as the true holder of the name Christianity.
That is not an objective sociological attitude. It is an empirically wrong attitude. And I know for a fact that you’re going to say that you know there are other forms of Christianity than the religious right — and you do know that — but the rhetorical force of your comment at AUFS relies on the assumption that Christianity is a unified phenomenon, best represented by the religious right. So you started this with your gratuitous insult to me and to my fellow theologians and to all those Christians out there devoting their lives and risking their lives for social justice. If you didn’t intend to do that, then fine — but that is what you did, and you need to be more careful. I know you’re more likely to stubbornly respond with “but I was only saying…,” but I am not stupid, I know how to read, and so do all the other people who clearly understood what you said in the same way I did.
You have seriously disrespected me in a way that “shut the fuck up” cannot achieve. You owe me and all the readers of AUFS an apology. That’s why I banned you — because you were slandering me and everyone else who was in dialogue with you there.
April 30, 2007 at 6:39 pm
Adam I think dr. Sinthome is right about your temper and besides no REAL and TRUE Christian church advocates your style as a method of dialoguing with an atheist, or a psychoanalyst. I really think you should apologize or I will be forced to press on with merciless parody.
April 30, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Adam, YES!!! You’ve finally got it! Let’s break out the champaign!
This is exactly my position! To the T! This is exactly what I’m saying!
Now let’s read on a little further:
You are absolutely correct. It would be completely wrong were I to suggest that Chicago Theological Seminary supports the things that the Southern Baptist Convention supported a few years ago (it’s changing, thank god, now).
So why have I made the claims I make about you supporting the religious right in an unintended way? My claim here certainly has nothing to do with the Chicago Theological Seminary. I say this because every time someone criticizes something about the relligious right you either: 1) claim that the religious right is not a potent political force within the United States, or 2) go into apoplectics about how religion is being denigrated.
How does this support the religious right? Well, your response effectively puts the religious right off limits for criticism, thereby helping to support the religious right by stifling any criticism of how they function. It has this effect on me (I’m less likely to voice dissent not wishing to have unpleasant discussions like this) and has this effect on readers as well.
Now, if you never responded in this way we’d have no disagreement. I rather like the Chicago Theological Seminary. I really do. I rather like the Episcopal church (well the part that didn’t split over the gay bishop issue). I rather like a lot of my evangelical friends who fight tirelessly for leftist political causes. I like all these things Adam and don’t think these things are secretly fighting on behalf of the religious right. However, if someone responds with outrage every time the religious right is brought up or criticized, I tend to think they’re somehow sympathetic to the religious right or are at least acting in a way that helps the religious right even if they don’t wish to help the religious right.
So maybe we can make an agreement: I’ll try to speak more clearly and say “religious right” every time I raise issues that I’m having. You make an effort to not flip out and assume I’m claiming all Christians are stupid and they are nazis and they should be eradicated whenever I bring these things up. If we can both do these two very minor things I bet we have very little to argue about. I’m really not interested in getting into theological discussions with you about whether God exists. I’m really not. I’m happy to develop my materialist ontology and see where it leads me without forcing it down everyone’s throat. I’m more than happy to be fascinated with your theology and the beauty and intricacy and nuance of your arguments as I am when I teach Marion or Augustine or Thomas in my class. Ethically and politically I doubt you and I disagree on much. We both have similar views on social justice, we both have similar views on the problems of capitalism. We both even have similar intellectual backgrounds and approach similar things. I experience you as divesting me of any legitimate gripe against religious wackos on the right. You experience me as attacking all Christians everywhere. Apparently I’m misunderstanding you and you’re misunderstanding me. I don’t think this is necessary.
April 30, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Adam, one more thing… What would make nice for you? I assume that because you keep posting here you feel that there’s some value in our continued dialogue. What do you want to hear from me to ease your upset and to feel vindicated? You know I won’t give up on my atheism or my materialist metaphysics. But what else can I do? What can I say to both earn some measure of good will from you and to show my goodwill?
April 30, 2007 at 6:58 pm
This is so frustrating. You do need to be more careful about simply identifying religion with the religious right. Literally every time we talk about this, I tell you how much I hate the religious right. I think that you exaggerate the amount of power it has — if they really do have more power than I think, then I suppose that my viewpoint is dangerous insofar as it’s inaccurate, but it’s offered up in good faith. I view the “religious right” phenomenon as a culture wars phenomenon, and I think (based on Thomas Frank and others) that the culture wars paradigm fundametally misses the point of what’s going on in American politics. I know that the religious right can be violent and destructive and I know they provide crucial support for a terrible political program — but at the end of the day, I view the religious right as a bunch of pathetic saps rather than as a genuine danger in and of themselves. They’re dangerous on a large scale only when mobilized by others, because they’re stupid/insane and incredibly politically naive and thus wouldn’t get very far without being manipulated from the outside. Those others are the real problem and should be the focus of analysis and critique.
April 30, 2007 at 6:59 pm
To make nice, you need to apologize for your initial comment at AUFS and your comparison to Heidegger’s support for the Nazi party. “Clarifying” and “nuancing” and blaming me for misunderstanding is not going to do it — your remarks were offensive, and I want an apology and retraction.
April 30, 2007 at 7:29 pm
I’m sorry Adam, I can’t do either of those things. I stand by the initial post at AUFS as I believe that this is something that happens in a number of contexts. For instance, I believe that a number of lower level people in the Bush administration genuinely believe in his rhetoric and end up supporting him, despite the fact that his administration does something contrary to many of those aims. I also believe a number of neocons have fell for this administration through overintellectualization of what the administration is aiming for.
I cannot apologize for the Heidegger remark because to do so would be to claim that I was calling you a Nazi when I was not. I can certainly see that I might have chosen a better example to illustrate the phenomenon I was attempting to point out, but I was certainly not suggesting you endorse Nazis. I am sorry, however, that you took offense and had the impression that I was claiming you support the Nazis.
I’ll try to walk you through your previous post to show what I’m bothered by:
This is so frustrating. You do need to be more careful about simply identifying religion with the religious right. Literally every time we talk about this, I tell you how much I hate the religious right.
Yes you did this for the first time about a month or two ago over at I Cite. I was happy and relieved to hear you say this. I do not, however, identify religion with the religious right. Generally the only thing that ever gets me worked up about Christianity is the religious right. You can work from the assumption that whenever I’m talking about a religious issue this is what I’m referring to.
I think that you exaggerate the amount of power it has — if they really do have more power than I think, then I suppose that my viewpoint is dangerous insofar as it’s inaccurate, but it’s offered up in good faith.
I don’t think your viewpoint is dangerous, though I do think you’re mistaken about the power of the religious right. This is a legitimate disagreement.
I view the “religious right” phenomenon as a culture wars phenomenon, and I think (based on Thomas Frank and others) that the culture wars paradigm fundametally misses the point of what’s going on in American politics.
I agree. I think all of these things are dust kicked up by more fundamental conflicts surrounding contemporary post-industrial capitalism. I think the so-called “culture wars” are a deep misinterpretation of what’s going on. I think Marx’s analysis of how capitalism makes everything solid melt into air and efface all tradition gives a far more accurate explanation of the phenomena these groups are denouncing than the so-called liberal hollywood, liberal academia, and science explanation.
I know that the religious right can be violent and destructive and I know they provide crucial support for a terrible political program — but at the end of the day, I view the religious right as a bunch of pathetic saps rather than as a genuine danger in and of themselves. They’re dangerous on a large scale only when mobilized by others, because they’re stupid/insane and incredibly politically naive and thus wouldn’t get very far without being manipulated from the outside. Those others are the real problem and should be the focus of analysis and critique.
Okay, this is where we diverge and why I continuously make the sorts of arguments I make, leading to your frustration. I agree, they are a bunch of pathetic saps. However, they are mobilized by others. Hence it’s worthwhile to be concerned by these masses. Where you would say we should focus on the higher ups that manipulate them, I say we need to focus on both this population and those higher ups. With the “poor saps” efforts need to be made to shift belief. Chances are this will be unsuccessful with the hardcore believers. But it is possible with their children and with those that aren’t excessively attached to the movement. Some useful strategies here would consist of offering alternative ministries that preach a leftist message, that educate the lay about the relationship between economics and tradition/living conditions, and that focus on social justice. Similarly, I think far more can be done to draw attention to those elements of the Gospels that speak to these things: Christ’s attitude towards hypocrits, Christs views on wealth and accumulation, the story of the good Samaritan (focusing on the fact that Samaritans were a despised class, thereby underlining that everyone can embody Christian values whether they identify with a tribe named “Christian” or not, i.e., designing a ministry that seeks to undermine divisive tribalism), focusing on the beatitudes, etc., etc., etc. Those are just off the cuff thoughts and I’m sure you’re familiar with far more intricate strategies. The point is to change the terms of the debate. I think certain moves are afoot in the Southern Baptist Convention to do precisely this, focusing once again on social justice and stewardship of the earth, rather than exclusionary aims such as banning homosexuality. These are still small voices but they are promising. Similar renewals are, from what I understand, being advanced among some Catholics.
The reason I make the arguments I make is that I see your constant asides that these movements aren’t serious as delegitimating a legitimate field of engagement and criticism. That’s my only gripe. I agree that there needs to be focus on the rabble rousers as well. I just don’t feel that should be the exclusive focus. This reactionary population that you refer to as insane pathetic saps hasn’t always existed (or rather has, at times, existed in fall smaller numbers). There’s no reason that forms of praxis can’t be devised to shift things back in that direction. As you know, many moves are already afoot and in practice to do precisely this and they are showing signs of success. However, I do think part of the success of these types of ministries also requires constant exposure of these reactionary groups so that socially they increasingly come to be coded exactly as you code them.
April 30, 2007 at 7:44 pm
The fact that you won’t renounce those statements shows me that while you’re playing nice now, you’re going to fall into the exact same patterns the next time this comes up.
I hope you prove me wrong. But for the record, I don’t consider us to have “made nice,” and I have no interest in your thoughts on any of my future blog posts.
April 30, 2007 at 9:10 pm
“I’m more than happy to respect your banning.”
You’re not banned. AUFS is not Adam’s blog exclusively. You are not welcome on his posts, but you are not banned from the rest of the blog. I’m not happy with you, but I suspect you could care less about my feelings or opinions, so here we are. But you are not banned.
May 1, 2007 at 12:10 am
Ho hum. This has rumbled on. I just actually really want to pick up on something you said earlier.
I actually don’t think this happens at all. In the case of the evangelical right in the States the theologians who turn up to a megachurch are certainly in support of everything that church stands for and everything it advocates. Giles Fraser (a theologian and a priest in the church of England) recently kicked off a big debate by calling substitutionary atonement violent. Every theologian I know who practices (85%-ish) if they have an opinion in what you call “the highly idealised conception of their religion” that relates directly to church life and practice (a good 90% of what theologians do), they would come out and criticise it. Theologians serve the church and they are also members of the church with a special role in critiquing the church. What do you think every single Vatican council is about, other than theologians kicking ideas around for days on end to try and work out who is right. I personally know of one theologian who was asked to attend a meeting with the Church of England top brass and basically told them straight that they were failing their mission and the world, though he will no doubt be at the eucharist on Sunday.
I personally, as a semi-lapsed but strongly cultural Catholic happily go to Church, but that doesn’t mean that I agree with their stances on various issues and indeed, I speak against them whenever the time is appropriate. You don’t seem to understand the relation between theology and practice and theology and the church very well at all. Or the relation between individual believers and the church more broadly, particularly when those believers are theologians.
And this is fine, because you are an atheist. But when you are making claims which amount to “theologians have this one idea of religion, but then turn a blind eye to what is practiced when they turn out every sunday” or (which is probably closer to what you are saying) “the theologians craft is a forgetting of the churches practice that endorses tacitly the actual practice that is negative in real world terms”. This isn’t the case. Here they teach a module called pratical theology and guess what this does.
I am sorry, and this verges on the rude, but I have to ask: other than the to-ings and fro-ings on academic blogs, how much do you actually know of academic theology and the present currents within it? I am not talking about the turn to religion (which is to my mind, a pretty bad turn – religion without religion is religion without anything that makes religion worthwhile, often), but I am talking about the nitty gritty of the debate, as covered by journals such as modern theology. That is, other than the evangelical right – then again, I doubt you have read their theology either.
And dude! this font is really hard to read! I hope I have been clear as possible here.
May 1, 2007 at 12:36 am
I actually don’t think this happens at all. In the case of the evangelical right in the States the theologians who turn up to a megachurch are certainly in support of everything that church stands for and everything it advocates.
This is an extremely strong claim that undermines the credibility of just about everything else you say in what follows. It is astonishing and improbable that religion and religion alone would be immune to the well-documented phenomenon of idealization and the over-estimation of the love object, which are common in every other branch of individual and social life, whether with regard to interpersonal love relations and friendships, our estimation of ourselves, or attitudes towards organizations, political movements, and even sports teams. In a clinical setting a psychoanalyst would be inclined to think a remark like this is the sign of a defense and denial.
This remark gets at the essence of my criticism:
You continue to support the institution while disagreeing with many of its stances. In doing so you support the instutition and the political effects that institution has. Most institutions, including churches, of course, have feedback loops such as those you describe with the Vatican council. This, however, doesn’t mean that we can’t get so caught up in our theological musings that we believe these are more real than the concrete social practices relating to the church and its political effects on the larger social space outside the community of believers. I recognize that it’s legitimate to argue that you believe this organization does more good than harm and these disagreements are tolerable. That’s fine. I could list a number of reasons I find the Catholic church problematic, but I don’t want to open that can of worms.
May 1, 2007 at 7:30 am
[…] internal conflicts, after following the furious argument about Christianity taking place between LarvalSubjects and the writers at An und für sich. These internal conflicts are not unlike the debates within […]
May 1, 2007 at 9:00 am
I almost didn’t put in that bit about my own committments because I knew that you would pick up on it rather than address my other points or answer the question about how much you understand of the discourse of theology.
Essentially Levi, I agree with a lot of what you say. But I give you this: if I supported Labour in the UK, which I have done in the past, I wouldn’t agree with all their stances on everything, but I would still vote for them. I don’t understand how this is any more complicated. And as regards disagreeing with many of its stances, other than the terrible attitude to homosexual people (though not at all as bad as evangelical Christians, the pope urged discussion of this issue should be always conducted in the properly Christian attitude of love, not hate and condemnation), sexuality more broadly and their repression of liberation theology, I agree with a large quantity of what the church says, particularly in regard to social ethics and economics. So yes, disagreements are tolerable. This has been the way the faith has always been practiced.
I do think that you are right re: not getting too caught up in theological musing to not bring it down to the ground. But to say that this is how all theology goes down or the vast majority, which is my reading of a lot of what you have said so far, seems wrong to me. I notice, for example, or at least I can’t find, one instance of saying that Adam isn’t an example of this “high” abstract and socially worthless theology.
May 1, 2007 at 2:20 pm
I almost didn’t put in that bit about my own committments because I knew that you would pick up on it rather than address my other points or answer the question about how much you understand of the discourse of theology.
Is there some sort of handbook for reactionaries theology students study at seminary? I didn’t “pick on your commitments”, I pointed out that it is implausable that the church is immune to the same socio-psychological mechanisms that all other human institutions are subject to. Pointing that out does not make you a victim or subject to some sort of ad hominem attack. It simply points out an implausibility in your argument. This, I think, is an important issue. No one would be “attacking” Churchland’s or Dennett’s or Deleuze’s or Badiou’s commitments by making arguments against their claims. They would be doing what philosophers do: engaging in argument and critique to show the shortcomings of a position.
I do not, to be sure, have an extensive background in theology. I’m familiar with a fair amount from the Middle Ages. Some contemporary theology such as Jean-Luc Marion. I’m not sure if you’d call what Descartes, Leibniz, or Whithead are up to theology as they’re not tied to Scripture in their claims in the way that a Christian theologian is (which isn’t to deny cultural influences, just to point out a very real difference between what a philosopher does in talking about God and what a Christian theologian does in seeking a rational understanding of Scripture while treating Scripture as true). Why would I get caught up in intricate theological discussions with a Greek about all the nuances of Greek theology (just how many gods there are, where they exist, how the daimons communicate with men, how they travel between heaven and earth, etc)? Why would I get in an intricate theological discussion with the Kaluli about the theology of the Gisaro ceremony and how it evokes the spirits of the ancestors? Extending the ethnographic argument and treating the various forms of Christianity as one more set of social practices among a particular people like any other: why would I get wrapped up in an intricate analysis of the theology of the Trinity or other such issues? This doesn’t, of course, mean that I would be uninterested in something like a Levi-Straussian or Bourdieuian analysis of the nature of those groups of people that calls themselves Christian and who happen to predominantly populate the America and certain parts of Europe, only that I don’t get caught up in the intricate discussions of how these peoples seek to ground their set of socio-symbolic practices. Any good ethogropher would be interested in the symbolic organization of practices among these various tribes, their social heirarchies, their modes of kinship exchange, their rituals, their histories and how they came to be and sometimes pass out of existence (no one, for instance, worships the Egyptian gods any longer… I religion that existed longer than the various forms of Christianity has), etc., etc. These ethnographies can make for some fascinating reading and can illuminate a number of things about the varied nature of human social practices, certain forms of conflict that certain social organizations invite, etc.
May 1, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Lest this great debate terminate, a few posers:
1. When we are so passionately speaking against the political/religious detractors, how do we locate them as the other and under which ontological paradigm?
2. Whether the thoughtless affiliation to some political/religious praxis has any potential of kindling emancipatory instincts in the individual? If yes, then whether it is a desirable phenomenon? And,
3. Should it evolve through the ambiguity of complex moral choices instead of settling for simplistic black and white labels?
May 1, 2007 at 3:26 pm
If you know of an ethnography of the practice of academic theology, I would be interested to read it. (Sincerely — though I would be surprised if an ethnography of that sort had been done.)
May 1, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Tusar, these are terrific questions. Very briefly, with regard to question 1 I’m working with an ontology of assemblages, where organizations are formed through constellations of individuals that have stronger or weaker bonds with one another depending on the assemblage in question. You and I, for instance, form an assemblage when we interact but our bonds are very loose as we seldom talk with one another and the duration of our connection is short (we’ve only just met in the last month so it’s unclear whether our assemblage will persist in time). A bureaucracy can be a very strong assemblage in that the positions composing the institution persist even when people move on to other jobs (they’re filled by other people), they have well defined protocols for interpersonal interactions and how things are done, and they are very slow to change. An assemblage is only maintained, in my view, through the interactions of the elements that compose it but cannot simply be reduced to these interactions. Consequently, the ontology I presuppose is 1) nominalist (there are only individuals at greater and lesser scales, i.e., a city is an individual composed of individuals), 2) process oriented or interactivist (these entities are products of interactions), 3) premised on immanence (there aren’t any transcendent essences defining true identities, only different assemblages that are auto-defining). I would hold that all social formations are assemblages, so I would make exactly the same arguments for political movements, nations, neighborhoods, cities, bureaucracies, tribes, fans of sports teams, etc., etc., etc. Anthony, et al, have claimed that I am practicing faux sociology. They might be right that I’m not a particularly good sociologist, but they seem to miss that these principles flow directly from my ontology and my theories of individuation. I am, of course, obligated to give compelling arguments that social formations should be understood in those terms. At any rate, these claims aren’t restricted to religion.
With regard to question 2, I think it is absolutely the case that religious praxis has the potential for kindling emancipatory instincts and has, in many cases, done so. The obvious example is the relationship of Martin Luther King’s civil rights movement to his religious belief. Now, we need to understand that there were a variety of reasons people participated in the civil rights movement. Some were motivated by religion, others were not. But certainly this was on assemblage that was motivated in such a way. From what I understand the Chiapas movement has a strong religious dimension. The point is that we need to look at assemblages on a case by case basis to see how they’re organized and what motivates them. There are other religious assemblages that work in a very different direction. Pre-17th century political arrangements (monarchy) were guaranteed by divine right and supported by the church, so here we have a non-emancipatory assemblage. There were other religious assemblages during this same time period that were perhaps emancipatory. The assemblages composing the religious right are often apologists for capitalism and highly oppressive regimes with regard to women, minorities (religious American nationalism and xenophobia), and homosexuals. But there are other assemblages that are committed to various forms of emancipation and they are gaining in strength. Badiou defines intensity as the degree to which something exists in a given situation. I think Badiou’s theorization suffers from being merely descriptive, but we could say that these emancipatory religious movements are “gaining in intensity”. Where before they were almost entirely invisible they are now becoming recognizable presences.
I am not sure that whether this is a desirable phenomenon is the right question to ask. This would presume that it is religion that is the problem and that we should thus necessarily have emanipatory politics without religion. Think of the issue in biological terms instead. Does it make sense to ask whether it is desirable for reptiles or mammals to be a solution to the problems posed by a particular ecosystem? No. They are one solution that has evolved, period. The varieties of religious assemblages are one particular solution among many. Now, I might be inclined to have concerns about religious assemblages. I think that religious upbringing trains persons to think in particular ways that can have negative side-effects– Emphasis on Scripture can teach us to be credulous of the miraculous and hostile to good empiricist forms of reasoning. Religion can train us to be defensive in forms of discussion, where we attack those who disagree with us on a personal level, where we attack messangers rather than the issue at hand, where we distort unpleasant facts, etc, etc. It can also lead to in-group/out-group forms of social relation or tribalism, where two parties that might otherwise agree or have shared values and aims enter into conflict because they belong to different “tribes”. However, these problems can occur in a wide variety assemblages that aren’t religious in character. That is, they are problems that plague group relations in general.
With regard to 3 I don’t have a whole lot to say. Generally I think black and white moral rules were effective technologies when human assemblages tended to exist in smaller and more homogenous communities that didn’t have many relations with other social assemblages. As capitalism has prgressed and we’ve been thrown in with groups from all over the world, these sorts of moralities have become increasingly impracticle, causing more conflict, etc. In my view we need situationally based ethical systems that are sensitive to the organization of assemblages in question and their context.
May 1, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Adam, the closest thing I can think of to such a study would be Bourdieu’s Homo Academicus, which wouldn’t be specific to academic theology. I wasn’t referring to ethnographies of academic theologians– which I agree would be very interesting –but ethnographies of various religious populations.
May 1, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Clarity is your forte and deserves a clap. But, as you so well understand, the words, Sociology and Ontology don’t gel. Hope to see the canvas spread.
May 1, 2007 at 7:21 pm
Thanks Tusar. Perhaps you could say a bit more as to why you believe ontology and sociology don’t gel. My view would be that sociology presupposes an ontology and ontology has sociological implications. The ontological claims that I make are 1) that only individuals exist (no essences), and 2) all individuals are processes or events. This makes a difference as to how you study social formations. If there are no essences, for instance, than it makes no sense to talk about the one true essence of Christianity and to evaluate various existing Christian practices according to this transcendent criteria. Rather, there are only these various groups and how they understand themselves.
May 2, 2007 at 3:46 am
You have pointed out that “sociology presupposes an ontology” which implies the primacy of ontology. Your “ontology of assemblages” in the present skeletal form leaves scope for hundreds of questions, and hence the disagreements. If you are proposing a new ontology devoid of sedimentation then a lot of fleshing out would be necessary. Or if it is a synthetic one then you will have to spell out the sources. In this context, may I reproduce what you wrote a few days back:
[Much of my thought and writing lately has been an attempt to speak honestly about what I value and am committed to. That is, I’ve tried to imagine a writing that might transform how I feel or relate to the world, or a writing that might be addressed to a close friend or loved one, summing up what I feel to be of particular value and truth. It seems to me that theory as it is often practiced today is split between a surface theory that is published and a shadow theory that the theorist genuinely advocates. For instance, a theorist might publicly claim that all is signifiers and then go to the doctor to get checked for cancer. There seems to be a disadequation between what the theorist proclaims and what he really advocates. This is a banal and unfair example. I want form of thought that is more honest and true to how I actually encounter the world.]
May 2, 2007 at 9:26 am
Is there some sort of handbook for reactionaries theology students study at seminary? I didn’t “pick on your commitments”, I pointed out that it is implausable that the church is immune to the same socio-psychological mechanisms that all other human institutions are subject to. Pointing that out does not make you a victim or subject to some sort of ad hominem attack.
Is there some kind of handbook for Lacanian psychoanalysists to haughtly talk down at people when discussing any topic. I am not at seminary, I was not in any way claiming to be victim of an ad hominem attack I was just simply stating that in mentioning my own ‘commitments’ you have done exactly what I thought you would do, start talking about them exclusively instead of actually tackling what I said. Its kind of an inverse ad hominem – because I called ad hominem (which I didn’t) then you can chuck an insult back over the barracades by saying that I am a reactionary theology student.
As regards the ethnography question I don’t know how long you could avoid theology when studying cultish practices. To even start discussing a communities myths and their beliefs about the relation between the Gods and men would begin to talk in a theological tone. It is neccesary for any true “thick” description.
May 2, 2007 at 1:03 pm
As regards the ethnography question I don’t know how long you could avoid theology when studying cultish practices. To even start discussing a communities myths and their beliefs about the relation between the Gods and men would begin to talk in a theological tone. It is neccesary for any true “thick” description.
This depends on what you mean by theology. If you’re using theology in a weak sense to refer to any discussion of the sorts of gods a group believes in, their views on the afterlife, and their rituals, then you are, of course, right. If you’re using it to refer to the intricate discussions of how a group establishes to itself that it’s beliefs are true, then no, this is not necessary. It’s sufficient that the group predominantly has a set of beliefs and cultural practices. The ethnographer need not get involved in the intricate discussions of why that group believes these things to be true. After all, the ethnogropher is familiar with a variety of groups and has learned that each of these groups is convinced of its “theologies”, so he’s come to be skeptical of all justifications in these domains, while nonetheless having no desire to demonstrate to these groups that there’s reason to be skeptical. For all the ethnographer knows, the Aztecs might have been right and all of humanity owes them a debt of gratitude for making such horrific sacrifices to ensure the continued existence of the world. After all, employing Dejan’s style of argument, the world’s still here so how can we demonstrate that the Aztecs were mistaken?
May 2, 2007 at 4:25 pm
All else aside, that’s a dullwitted response, and a standard one among those who equate ‘politicized fundamentalist Christianity’ with ‘Christian beliefs.’ I’m “just sayin'” and all.
May 2, 2007 at 5:54 pm
All else aside, that’s a dullwitted response, and a standard one among those who equate ‘politicized fundamentalist Christianity’ with ‘Christian beliefs.’ I’m “just sayin’” and all.
It’s reductive and dishonest to reduce my critism to this offhand sarcastic remark in a comment thread that has 88 posts, over half of which are mine. Sorry, but you don’t get to set “all else aside”. Nonetheless, with that point in mind, I see little reason to extend any good will to so-called “Christians” that can’t even be bothered to act according to the particular values expressed by their savior. If I’m told that I’m not in a position to judge this outside of Christianity all bets are off as others can just set up whatever values they wish. “You shall know them by their acts.” In my view, one of the most effective weapons in the Christian’s arsenal is not their arguments, not their promises of salvation, but how a Christian lives and relates to others. This would hold not only for those that already belong to that community, but especially to those outside the community. But if this is the case, there must be collective standards that allow these things to be recognized by others. These standards can be historically contingent, but collective nonetheless. Part of what’s extraordinary in Jesus (for me) is how he relates to the Samaritins (the despised), women, lepers, thieves, etc., and his hostility to certain segments of his own people that are highly respected such as the moneychangers in the temple or the self-righteous, holier than thou Pharisees. These are the things that are most convincing to me, not magician stories and certainly not self-righteous and hateful behavior.
May 7, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Kotsko and CO. should be nominated routinely for like “Most Blithering Stoopid Xtian Postmodernist Phuck of Month” award. He’d face some competition from Long Sunday Peoples, and Valve (at least in terms of narcissistic idiocies per paragraph, Holblo and his grrlies are in the running), but ah suspect AK’d prove victorious. Blogland has reached a fairly sad state of affairs when some socialist bore such as Puchalsky is about the only semi-rational dweeb to be found………………..
May 8, 2007 at 8:15 pm
No one would be “attacking” Churchland’s or Dennett’s or Deleuze’s or Badiou’s commitments by making arguments against their claims. They would be doing what philosophers do: engaging in argument and critique to show the shortcomings of a position.
Important point. The Kotsko sort of naif wants conjure up his intuitive ethics, invoke “commitment,” or engagement or whatever other sentimental BS he takes to be political philosophy (since he never bothers with an informal level of argument at even the level of say a Hobbes), and make some implied claim of moral turpitude, or nihilism, or somethingagainst anyone who objects to theology (rather traditional sort of defamation strategy really–) One sees this all over the “postmod” blogs: most of these people could care less what a Quine had to say about realism vs. nominalism; they want to know his perspective on ‘Nam or something. While I agree that Quine’s political views are not irrelevant (nor is a Heidegger’s), that is not how one proceeds to do any sort of thinking, is it? I don’t think so. And really Kotsko, for all his Derrida and BS french leftism sounds more like a Bill O’Reilly altar-boy sentimentalist than an intellectual. This Weblog and Long Sunday crew apparently never read Candide, or Hume or Rousseau, or anything remotely secular and rational. And really, in traditional theological terms, the anti-rationalism of this crew is itself suspect. So, altering my Bill O’Reilly altar-boy comment: the Webloggers are not yet catholic rationalists: they are sort of hick Martin Luthers, bawling about the whore of Reason………
May 9, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Adversary, I also think they have almost no sex, or very little.
July 6, 2007 at 5:36 am
Well, that was entertaining. You have an atheist who says he doesn’t believe in essences saying that much intellectualism is idealized and sails right on past the practical reality of our ecclesiology and/or our politics. Then you have a really rude liberal Christian who claims the atheist to be a dick for saying he’s a Nazi while it also appears that his point of contention is his Nazi environment in which he was raised. Then you have “Adversary,” whose personal link is to the msn news front page, putting in his two cents and saying that the religious types are inherently feidist “anti-intellecutals” and have never read anything worthwhile that is secular. The funnyness of the “anti-intellectual” claim should be illumed by the original claim for intellectualism’s missing of the practical boat. Then, of course, in the end Dejan cums in the face of the whole thing by saying that none of them have enough sex. Fodder for a Saturday Night Live skit, I’d say.
:)
December 25, 2007 at 7:28 pm
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